I'm a late to this party but will do my best to get up to speed. I cannot download Threadable (running a PC) but have requested the Estes and Linklater books via interlibrary loan. The Henry George book is currently available at the local university library and I hope to pick it up either tomorrow or Monday.
This is a critically important topic and my goal before shuffling off this mortal coil is to radically transform the consciousness of every human being on the planet so that we might live with gratefulness and in full reciprocity with nature . I hope to have this humble little project wrapped up by next Halloween so that I can move on to some long overdue plumbing repairs.
There are no deadlines! I think you'll enjoy some of the books, especially Linklater. George's book is kind of huge, but I'm happy to tell you which sections (besides the Threadable one) most directly address the subject. And I find him fun to read. The language is a little dated but his passion and fierce advocacy make up for it, at least for me.
I'm with you on that goal! And I hope we do wrap it up quickly because I have a toilet seat to fix along with a lot of other mundane household tasks ;)
Yes, knowing which sections best relate to the subject at hand would be helpful. Otherwise I risk spreading myself too thin. Something I am wont to do. Also, I suspect that you read faster than me.
I'm looking through George now and what a challenge it is narrowing it down! I really love this book. I THINK that in addition to the section I used for Threadable, the following are useful/interesting/explain some of his ideas (though it all builds on one another):
Book V, Chapter 2: "The Persistence of Poverty Amid Advancing Wealth"
Book VII, Chapter 3: "Claim of Landowners to Compensation"
Book X, Chapter 4: "How Modern Civilization May Decline"
Book X, Chapter 5: "The Central Truth"
These last two might be my favorite (I marked them up quite a bit), but they are less about the specifics of land ownership itself and more about the effects of inequality on democracy and social stability. Expanding on his extensive case against land ownership to show how the property system destabilizes society.
Thank you so much. I am astonished that you remembered, and that you were willing and able to take time to go back through your book for this. You must have far more energy and stamina than I do.
After some interruptions and slowdowns over the past month I am still working the Freyfogle book (chapter 5 was fantastic!), and have started reading Linklater. I'm also taking a class at the university this semester: "Questioning Reason in Philosophy and Politics," which actually dovetails rather nicely with some of the themes contained within your recommended readings. So...why not throw in a little George? Your description of chapters 4 and 5 sounds perfect. Maybe I'll start there? And yes, I am taking notes and doing a little freewriting along the way.
The other day I listened to one of your podcasts about walking. It was very good. Quite interesting. You have inspired me to step up my game. During past conversations I've shared with a few people that I do some of my best writing while walking or bike riding. They probably thought I was joking. Now I know that you know exactly what I mean.
Oh, of course! I mean, I don't have that much energy and stamina actually, but sharing and talking about all these resources is part of the work I do and I enjoy it :)
That Questioning Reason class sounds fascinating. Getting underneath our assumptions and axioms about what people say and think, including ourselves ... it'd be hard not to be interested.
One of my favorite things while working on my book about walking was that people would tell me their walking stories. And still do! It is endlessly interesting to hear about people's relationships with walking. It's very real and you're not alone. Things shift for me on long walks, and I think most people find that if they do it. There is so much going on in that mind-body connection we know little about. I'm so glad you have that!
I read George a few years ago so have an advantage over everyone ;) I'll get back to you on which sections. A huge chunk of it is dismantling Smith and Ricardo and Malthus, which I found interesting but isn't that necessary.
Thanks for reminding me! It remains woefully unrepaired :(
Oct 15, 2022·edited Oct 15, 2022Liked by Antonia Malchik
Finally got around to this. Thanks for starting it. I have vision issues that make using it on the iPhone more or less impossible and cannot get the app on my PC. Is there any way to replicate what was being discussed here?
I have long told people that the most easily discernible roots of our current issues go back to the Enclosures. That's only true for our particular thread of history of course, though there were analogous episodes elsewhere. What I don't see in the discussion - to the extent I could read it - is any ideas about the connection of the English feudal system that Linklater describes (and, as others said I think, tends to romanticize) to its early roots. Our "frost-bitten" forebears (as Robinson Jeffers called them) must have evolved through some version of a "gift economy" or reciprocity, which was what they found and attempted to wipe out when they landed here. And while they had to try to wipe out the indigenous folks for practical reasons (from their perspective) what they also had to do was wipe out a story (a myth) that was inconsistent with theirs. So, there is a question that I ponder about how we lost the story of a reciprocal community life, full of mutual obligation. Linklater shows how it was still there in the Commons before the enclosures but how did the sense of self that led to the enclosures come about? Private land is a reflection or a symptom of individualism, not the cause. Did it go back to the idea of individual salvation. or what?
Hi Lee -- see today's post! I hope facilitating discussions here on the newsletter will make the subject more accessible to people who can't or don't want to use the app. (I am liking the app but have to admit that being on my phone for that length of time is ... a lot.)
And so much of what you say here resonates for me. Having just reread the first chapter of Linklater's book, that romanticization of feudalism comes through more forcefully than it did the first time around. Especially as I'm currently reading Orlando Figes's "The Story of Russia" and thinking more about Russian serfdom, which has hardly ever been romanticized -- with good reason.
"what they also had to do was wipe out a story (a myth) that was inconsistent with theirs." That's pretty much what I obsess about all the time, along with your point the private land is a reflection or symptom of individualism, not the cause. If we could find an answer, maybe we could really change things fast. But I feel that the answer might lie in the simple attraction of power and wealth, or comfort, or a feeling of security against want and scarcity. I don't know but I really want to talk about this with more people! Because "how did the sense of self that led to the enclosures come about?" -- EXACTLY!
Just lost a reply because I wasn't properly signed in. Hope I am now. We seem to be plagued with forms of "security" that make us less sane. And how is that secure?
I too would love to hear from others. Do we have to dominate the land and other people to be comfortable?
So annoying when that happens! I agree -- it all just seems to create work and headache.
I will have another post next week on land ownership reading (Erik T. Freyfogle's "The Land We Share"), and I think these questions and issues will come up more in a couple of weeks when we read texts related to the Doctrine of Discovery because that is fundamentally an issue in colonization. Also in a few weeks I've got John Locke's treatise on private property, and before that a section from Henry George's book Progress & Poverty, with his very passionate thoughts on the injustice of private land ownership and the inequities it creates.
But that last question -- I'll bring that forward to a new post, if you don't mind, so more people see it and have a chance to bring their own thoughts.
Love this and look forward to the conversation. I thought of your work and a source that is lighthearted but so lovely to consider: Snufkin, from the Moomintroll books. I can't recall which one, but he has a fight with the police man over no trespassing signs, and does everything to take them down and foil attempts at enforcing private property. It's so subversive and great--Tove Jansson was a rebel through and through.
That sounds right along these lines! I was going to include some fiction (like from Willa Cather), but ended up doing all nonfiction. But for the larger ownership project, fiction is definitely going in there :) That story sounds familiar. I'm wondering where I could have run across a mention of it. Maybe in Cory Doctorow's work?
So great, I'll have to look it up! Jansson talks about it again in The Summer Book, which is also a beautiful read:
“In the middle of the gravel was a large sign with black latters that said PRIVATE PROPERTY--NO TRESPASSING.
"We'll go ashore," Grandma said. She was very angry. Sophia looked frightened. "There's a big difference," her grandmother explained. "No well-bred person goes ashore on someone else's island when there's no one home. But if they put up a sign, then you do it anyway, because it's a slap in the face.” ― Tove Jansson, The Summer Book
her writing is so great--the moomintroll books are a ruse--they pretend to be for children, but they are so profound and matter of fact in their melancholy and humor. I forget and then go back to them and love them even more every re-read. I think the one with Snufkin taking the no tresspassing signs down is Moominsummer Madness, but can't recall for certain--if I do I'll send you a note. ;)
I followed the link after installing the app on my iPhone. I see a few Circles and a bunch of Collections, but not one entitled Land Ownership. If I choose Circles and choose “Join a Circle”, I am prompted to enter a five-digit Invite Code. Maybe I’m missing something obvious? The homepage shows only three Circles or “Guided Commentaries”, which are Nature, Race & History, and Classic Fiction. Seems promising, but so far I’m at a bit of a loss.
(This still takes me to a download page on my laptop but then if I download it opens the app and then the circle invite. On a phone it should, in theory (!), go directly to the reading circle invite request page.)
There are going to be a lot of interesting reading circles on there. If I can get people through the tech troubleshooting!
Oct 7, 2022·edited Oct 7, 2022Liked by Antonia Malchik
Not to get too meta, but it would be really cool to observe the secondary dialogical "conversation" between the Threadable threads, and the one here! Not for me (one conversation is all I can handle in this context), but maybe for you later as part of your research; you could go back to the two parallel conversations with fresh eyes and examine how they link up. Maybe I joked about this already in one of your earlier posts as dueling banjos, don't recall exactly.
And I hope it would be fine to dip in and out in terms of participation, as time might not allow some weeks. Thanks so much for doing this, it's a great idea.
Absolutely fine! Some of the readings will interest some people more than others anyway. I'm sure if it were me I wouldn't participate in everything. I'm not giving out grades ;)
It would be interesting. I don't think you mentioned dueling banjos before, but it's an interesting analogy, especially if each player only hears part of what the other person is playing. Maybe it reminds me more of one of those TikTok song threads my daughter likes, the NumNum cat one where one musician starts riffing and then one after another joins in. (Ear worm warnings for this; it sticks in your head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C1FZ4HtzGY)
I'm talking with the head of the reading circles. He's trying to figure out the problem and is wondering if you'd be willing to email him directly to work it out? He's wondering if it's a navigation thing. Sorry, didn't mean for this to be a hassle! I can keep working with him on it, but otherwise if you want to email the two of us directly it's:
It should not be asking for a code! I am sorry. That was their old join method but they said now we just use the link. I will ask. And thank you for joining! I’m excited about this.
This is great and I’m here for it. It’s asking me for a 5-digit code as well, even after using the link above. Will try again tomorrow because this is right up my alley. Or, possibly not *my* alley!
I'm talking with the head of the reading circles. He's trying to figure out the problem and is wondering if you'd be willing to email him directly to work it out? He's wondering if it's a navigation thing. Sorry, didn't mean for this to be a hassle! I can keep working with him on it, but otherwise if you want to email the two of us directly it's:
I'm asking them for some troubleshooting help -- sorry about this! We'll get it worked out, I'm sure, and very excited for the forthcoming conversations. Which, yes, I find myself tripping over all sorts of things, like "my yard," "my dog," "my problem ..." ;)
Congrats on the partnership! Seems like it will be a very intellectually enriching experience - connecting disparate dots of information and studying their linkages is always eye opening from my experience. 👌👌👌
Was kinda thinking if it works out you might be interested in talking with them about leading a circle, too! Considering your interests and wide reading :)
Ooh, that looks excellent! Just downloaded the episode on land trusts--thank you, Julie!
Good morning! I ran across this podcast and thought of you. It's from (Instagram) @lylajune a PhD architect specializing in indigenous knowledge, indigenous land management, and excavating hidden history https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beata-tsosie-the-poetry-of-land-liberation/id1591832998?i=1000585758037
I'm a late to this party but will do my best to get up to speed. I cannot download Threadable (running a PC) but have requested the Estes and Linklater books via interlibrary loan. The Henry George book is currently available at the local university library and I hope to pick it up either tomorrow or Monday.
This is a critically important topic and my goal before shuffling off this mortal coil is to radically transform the consciousness of every human being on the planet so that we might live with gratefulness and in full reciprocity with nature . I hope to have this humble little project wrapped up by next Halloween so that I can move on to some long overdue plumbing repairs.
There are no deadlines! I think you'll enjoy some of the books, especially Linklater. George's book is kind of huge, but I'm happy to tell you which sections (besides the Threadable one) most directly address the subject. And I find him fun to read. The language is a little dated but his passion and fierce advocacy make up for it, at least for me.
I'm with you on that goal! And I hope we do wrap it up quickly because I have a toilet seat to fix along with a lot of other mundane household tasks ;)
Yes, knowing which sections best relate to the subject at hand would be helpful. Otherwise I risk spreading myself too thin. Something I am wont to do. Also, I suspect that you read faster than me.
How's that toilet seat coming along?
I'm looking through George now and what a challenge it is narrowing it down! I really love this book. I THINK that in addition to the section I used for Threadable, the following are useful/interesting/explain some of his ideas (though it all builds on one another):
Book V, Chapter 2: "The Persistence of Poverty Amid Advancing Wealth"
Book VII, Chapter 3: "Claim of Landowners to Compensation"
Book X, Chapter 4: "How Modern Civilization May Decline"
Book X, Chapter 5: "The Central Truth"
These last two might be my favorite (I marked them up quite a bit), but they are less about the specifics of land ownership itself and more about the effects of inequality on democracy and social stability. Expanding on his extensive case against land ownership to show how the property system destabilizes society.
Thank you so much. I am astonished that you remembered, and that you were willing and able to take time to go back through your book for this. You must have far more energy and stamina than I do.
After some interruptions and slowdowns over the past month I am still working the Freyfogle book (chapter 5 was fantastic!), and have started reading Linklater. I'm also taking a class at the university this semester: "Questioning Reason in Philosophy and Politics," which actually dovetails rather nicely with some of the themes contained within your recommended readings. So...why not throw in a little George? Your description of chapters 4 and 5 sounds perfect. Maybe I'll start there? And yes, I am taking notes and doing a little freewriting along the way.
The other day I listened to one of your podcasts about walking. It was very good. Quite interesting. You have inspired me to step up my game. During past conversations I've shared with a few people that I do some of my best writing while walking or bike riding. They probably thought I was joking. Now I know that you know exactly what I mean.
Cheers
Oh, of course! I mean, I don't have that much energy and stamina actually, but sharing and talking about all these resources is part of the work I do and I enjoy it :)
That Questioning Reason class sounds fascinating. Getting underneath our assumptions and axioms about what people say and think, including ourselves ... it'd be hard not to be interested.
One of my favorite things while working on my book about walking was that people would tell me their walking stories. And still do! It is endlessly interesting to hear about people's relationships with walking. It's very real and you're not alone. Things shift for me on long walks, and I think most people find that if they do it. There is so much going on in that mind-body connection we know little about. I'm so glad you have that!
I read George a few years ago so have an advantage over everyone ;) I'll get back to you on which sections. A huge chunk of it is dismantling Smith and Ricardo and Malthus, which I found interesting but isn't that necessary.
Thanks for reminding me! It remains woefully unrepaired :(
Finally got around to this. Thanks for starting it. I have vision issues that make using it on the iPhone more or less impossible and cannot get the app on my PC. Is there any way to replicate what was being discussed here?
I have long told people that the most easily discernible roots of our current issues go back to the Enclosures. That's only true for our particular thread of history of course, though there were analogous episodes elsewhere. What I don't see in the discussion - to the extent I could read it - is any ideas about the connection of the English feudal system that Linklater describes (and, as others said I think, tends to romanticize) to its early roots. Our "frost-bitten" forebears (as Robinson Jeffers called them) must have evolved through some version of a "gift economy" or reciprocity, which was what they found and attempted to wipe out when they landed here. And while they had to try to wipe out the indigenous folks for practical reasons (from their perspective) what they also had to do was wipe out a story (a myth) that was inconsistent with theirs. So, there is a question that I ponder about how we lost the story of a reciprocal community life, full of mutual obligation. Linklater shows how it was still there in the Commons before the enclosures but how did the sense of self that led to the enclosures come about? Private land is a reflection or a symptom of individualism, not the cause. Did it go back to the idea of individual salvation. or what?
Hi Lee -- see today's post! I hope facilitating discussions here on the newsletter will make the subject more accessible to people who can't or don't want to use the app. (I am liking the app but have to admit that being on my phone for that length of time is ... a lot.)
And so much of what you say here resonates for me. Having just reread the first chapter of Linklater's book, that romanticization of feudalism comes through more forcefully than it did the first time around. Especially as I'm currently reading Orlando Figes's "The Story of Russia" and thinking more about Russian serfdom, which has hardly ever been romanticized -- with good reason.
"what they also had to do was wipe out a story (a myth) that was inconsistent with theirs." That's pretty much what I obsess about all the time, along with your point the private land is a reflection or symptom of individualism, not the cause. If we could find an answer, maybe we could really change things fast. But I feel that the answer might lie in the simple attraction of power and wealth, or comfort, or a feeling of security against want and scarcity. I don't know but I really want to talk about this with more people! Because "how did the sense of self that led to the enclosures come about?" -- EXACTLY!
Just lost a reply because I wasn't properly signed in. Hope I am now. We seem to be plagued with forms of "security" that make us less sane. And how is that secure?
I too would love to hear from others. Do we have to dominate the land and other people to be comfortable?
So annoying when that happens! I agree -- it all just seems to create work and headache.
I will have another post next week on land ownership reading (Erik T. Freyfogle's "The Land We Share"), and I think these questions and issues will come up more in a couple of weeks when we read texts related to the Doctrine of Discovery because that is fundamentally an issue in colonization. Also in a few weeks I've got John Locke's treatise on private property, and before that a section from Henry George's book Progress & Poverty, with his very passionate thoughts on the injustice of private land ownership and the inequities it creates.
But that last question -- I'll bring that forward to a new post, if you don't mind, so more people see it and have a chance to bring their own thoughts.
I'm looking forward to our readings and discussions, Nia!
Me, too!
Love this and look forward to the conversation. I thought of your work and a source that is lighthearted but so lovely to consider: Snufkin, from the Moomintroll books. I can't recall which one, but he has a fight with the police man over no trespassing signs, and does everything to take them down and foil attempts at enforcing private property. It's so subversive and great--Tove Jansson was a rebel through and through.
That sounds right along these lines! I was going to include some fiction (like from Willa Cather), but ended up doing all nonfiction. But for the larger ownership project, fiction is definitely going in there :) That story sounds familiar. I'm wondering where I could have run across a mention of it. Maybe in Cory Doctorow's work?
The link on this post turns out not to work, so if you want to join, this link is better: https://threadablenative.page.link/voPLjeE4H7doM8zd8
Substack refuses to let me spell his name right. Cory Doctorow!
So great, I'll have to look it up! Jansson talks about it again in The Summer Book, which is also a beautiful read:
“In the middle of the gravel was a large sign with black latters that said PRIVATE PROPERTY--NO TRESPASSING.
"We'll go ashore," Grandma said. She was very angry. Sophia looked frightened. "There's a big difference," her grandmother explained. "No well-bred person goes ashore on someone else's island when there's no one home. But if they put up a sign, then you do it anyway, because it's a slap in the face.” ― Tove Jansson, The Summer Book
Oh, I love that! I think I'm going to have to go to the bookstore tomorrow and order this. Thank you!
her writing is so great--the moomintroll books are a ruse--they pretend to be for children, but they are so profound and matter of fact in their melancholy and humor. I forget and then go back to them and love them even more every re-read. I think the one with Snufkin taking the no tresspassing signs down is Moominsummer Madness, but can't recall for certain--if I do I'll send you a note. ;)
Isn’t it funny how often good children’s literature manages to do that? These ones sound like books I’ll really enjoy.
I don't have an iPhone, but I do have a Mac. I'll try downloading Threadable on that. This is a really cool project.
I think you'll be interested in some of the readings :)
The link I put up in this post doesn't work (something Substack does to it), but this one should! https://www.threadablebooks.com/app/circles?circleId=40130ff1-2f19-40e0-a3b7-fea239dc8efd
I followed the link after installing the app on my iPhone. I see a few Circles and a bunch of Collections, but not one entitled Land Ownership. If I choose Circles and choose “Join a Circle”, I am prompted to enter a five-digit Invite Code. Maybe I’m missing something obvious? The homepage shows only three Circles or “Guided Commentaries”, which are Nature, Race & History, and Classic Fiction. Seems promising, but so far I’m at a bit of a loss.
Thank you so much -- and apologies for the hassle! It seems to be a problem with Substack redirecting the embedded link.
This should be the direct invite link: https://threadablenative.page.link/voPLjeE4H7doM8zd8
(This still takes me to a download page on my laptop but then if I download it opens the app and then the circle invite. On a phone it should, in theory (!), go directly to the reading circle invite request page.)
There are going to be a lot of interesting reading circles on there. If I can get people through the tech troubleshooting!
Aha! This works, thanks for the quick followup. Looking forward to this!
Oh my goodness, I'm so relieved! And looking forward to it, too :)
Love this Antonia and really excited to read together!
Me, too!
Hi Antonia, Threadbare is asking for an 'invite code' to join a reading circle...
I am so sorry! Turns out that when I embedded the link in the post, it turned it into a Substack link. This one should work: https://www.threadablebooks.com/app/circles?circleId=40130ff1-2f19-40e0-a3b7-fea239dc8efd
If it doesn't, I'll work with the app people to get you in. Looking forward to it!
These should be the same links to the same place but they look different: https://threadablenative.page.link/voPLjeE4H7doM8zd8
This sounds like a fascinating and audacious project. I hope to be able to participate
Not to get too meta, but it would be really cool to observe the secondary dialogical "conversation" between the Threadable threads, and the one here! Not for me (one conversation is all I can handle in this context), but maybe for you later as part of your research; you could go back to the two parallel conversations with fresh eyes and examine how they link up. Maybe I joked about this already in one of your earlier posts as dueling banjos, don't recall exactly.
And I hope it would be fine to dip in and out in terms of participation, as time might not allow some weeks. Thanks so much for doing this, it's a great idea.
Absolutely fine! Some of the readings will interest some people more than others anyway. I'm sure if it were me I wouldn't participate in everything. I'm not giving out grades ;)
It would be interesting. I don't think you mentioned dueling banjos before, but it's an interesting analogy, especially if each player only hears part of what the other person is playing. Maybe it reminds me more of one of those TikTok song threads my daughter likes, the NumNum cat one where one musician starts riffing and then one after another joins in. (Ear worm warnings for this; it sticks in your head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C1FZ4HtzGY)
This sounds amazing. I used the link and downloaded the app but it is asking me for a five digit invite code for the circle. Could I have that code?
I'm talking with the head of the reading circles. He's trying to figure out the problem and is wondering if you'd be willing to email him directly to work it out? He's wondering if it's a navigation thing. Sorry, didn't mean for this to be a hassle! I can keep working with him on it, but otherwise if you want to email the two of us directly it's:
Stefan Siegel: stefan@threadablebooks.com
Antonia Malchik: amalchik@gmail.com
I’m happy to email! Thank you so much for following this up.
It should not be asking for a code! I am sorry. That was their old join method but they said now we just use the link. I will ask. And thank you for joining! I’m excited about this.
This is great and I’m here for it. It’s asking me for a 5-digit code as well, even after using the link above. Will try again tomorrow because this is right up my alley. Or, possibly not *my* alley!
This link *should* go directly to the right place: https://threadablenative.page.link/voPLjeE4H7doM8zd8
This one works!! Thank you!
Whew! Thank YOU!
Hi Beth -- Think we've figured out the issue. When I embedded the link on this post, it turned into a Substack redirect link. This one should work I hope! https://www.threadablebooks.com/app/circles?circleId=40130ff1-2f19-40e0-a3b7-fea239dc8efd
I'm talking with the head of the reading circles. He's trying to figure out the problem and is wondering if you'd be willing to email him directly to work it out? He's wondering if it's a navigation thing. Sorry, didn't mean for this to be a hassle! I can keep working with him on it, but otherwise if you want to email the two of us directly it's:
Stefan Siegel: stefan@threadablebooks.com
Antonia Malchik: amalchik@gmail.com
I'm asking them for some troubleshooting help -- sorry about this! We'll get it worked out, I'm sure, and very excited for the forthcoming conversations. Which, yes, I find myself tripping over all sorts of things, like "my yard," "my dog," "my problem ..." ;)
Come to think of it, I haven't actually read the papal bull in question.
elm
i'm game
Great!
Congrats on the partnership! Seems like it will be a very intellectually enriching experience - connecting disparate dots of information and studying their linkages is always eye opening from my experience. 👌👌👌
Was kinda thinking if it works out you might be interested in talking with them about leading a circle, too! Considering your interests and wide reading :)